I am new to engraving and looking at all of my options for pneumatic engravers. I have been looking at GRS tools and I have also seen Lindsay's tools. Could someone that has used Steve's palm control engraver give me their oppinion on it? Is it really worth the extra money? Thanks in advance for you time. Would like to say too, that I really enjoy this sight and do intend on becoming a member soon.

Respectfully,
Dan Grubaugh

Dan Grubaugh
7/6/2006 11:11:17 AM

Hello Dan, and welcome to the forum.
We will all look forward to having you join us in the Guild.
I'm sure you will enjoy the benefits and fellowship.
You might contact Brian Marshall at 209-477-0550 or Email
instructor@jewelryartschool.com
Brian is a Guild member and a fine instructor who teaches using all types of engraving equipment and methods. He will give you some help, I'm sure.
The best of luck to you in your engraving venture, you will enjoy using which ever of the fine tools you select.
John

John Barraclough
7/6/2006 11:34:59 AM

Thanks for the info John, I will check into it. I look forward to becoming a member of the Guild and someday meeting you.
Dan

Dan Grubaugh
7/6/2006 3:04:36 PM

Hi Dan,

Had to dig up my password... been a while since I posted.

I have used the GRS products since their inception. I think my old Meister is something like serial number 237. (That'll also give you an idea how old I'm getting to be:) Then I switched to the Maxes when they first came out, and recently we've just added the Mach to the classroom.

I have used the Lindsay line of tools on my own bench for about 6 years now. Never had a problem with any of them. And yes, my favorite has come to be the PalmControl. I use it for everything - stonesetting, texturing, chasing, and carving - as well as engraving.

What most people don't seem to realize is that the "PalmControl" itself is a SEPARATE attachment for an AirGraver. You can buy a combination AirGraver with the PalmControl already on it - or you can get a Chasing or Classic using a foot pedal control and convert it to PalmControl later on...

Simply twist/lock it into place and hook up a tiny tube. Takes about three to five minutes if you've never done it before.

The actual results from either Lindsay tool under a microscope are indistinguishable. The "tool" is exactly the same. The method of control is the only difference. The PalmControl convenience - being able to make changes in the stroke and power with the same hand that is making the cuts - is an amazing advance.

Where are you? If you are close to someone on this forum, maybe you can hook up with them to visit and try the tools.

If you are anywhere near north central California - you are welcome to stop by here and try any brand of power-assisted engraving tool you'd like. Call first to make sure I'm around...

Brian P. Marshall
Stockton Jewelry Arts School
Stockton, CA USA
209-477-0550
instructor@jewelryartschool.com


Brian Marshall
7/6/2006 4:08:43 PM

Hello Brian, thanks for the response and inforamation, that helps out a lot. I live in Michigan. I visited Joe Rundell a couple of years ago and was in total awe of his work. I appreitiate the offer to stop in and demo the tools. If I was in Califonia you can bet I'd visit your shop! I will probably go with the GRS tools for now due to the cost, but I really like the concept of the Lidsay palm control. I'm sure it would be very helpful in learning to engrave not having to cooridnate hand and foot responses. I'm sure I will talk to you again as I am full of questions, so keep that password handy! Thank you again for your time and I look forward to talking with you again.

Dan Grubaugh

Dan Grubaugh
7/7/2006 8:34:22 AM

Dan.
Not to take anything away from the fine GRS line of tools.
But if you want to go with palm control eventually, why not start with the Lindsay foot control machine and convert it to palm control when finances allow?
The GraverMach and the foot control Lindsay Airgraver are about the same price.
You can add the palm control to the Lindsay at a later date if that's the way you want to go eventually.
I have many set-ups, GraverMax, Lindsay foot and Ngraver flex-shaft as well as hammer and chisel and regular push gravers and enjoy them all.
I don't have the palm control for the Lindsay tool but could add it later if I wished. Quite frankly I like it as is with the foot control.
Bottom line. Just remember that great work is being produced by engravers using everything from the simplest to the most complicated types of tools.
One of the best tools is still a pencil and paper.
The skill is in their hands and minds.
Have fun picking your tools of choice.
Best wishes, John.


John Barraclough
7/7/2006 10:10:40 AM

Dan,
I don't know how far you are from Ludington but I would be glad to show you my set up if you are close. I'm always glad to show new engravers my shop and give them some tips. Just beware....I'll probably twist your arm to join the Guild while you are here however.
You can e-mail me at fega@fega.com.

Rex Pedersen
7/7/2006 10:35:40 AM

John,
Good point! I was so involved in the thought of the palm control Lindsay that I didn't even think of that option!! I just may do that. Thanks!
Dan

Dan Grubaugh
7/8/2006 12:00:31 AM

Hi Dan

I don't wish to take anything away from John's response but you really should try both the GRS and Lindsay before committing to either. I've used GRS for years now and have recently upgraded to the GraverMach....and what a machine it is! It's lightyears ahead of the old GraverMax and can more than hold it's ground with an AirGraver. In fact it has several advantages in my view. The number one advantage being that you select a speed and it's there eg, if I want to chequer a bolt handle or top lever I can set the speed as low as I want and hit that pedal and really shift steel. Using different handpieces I can use the whole power range from 400spm to 8000spm and I defy anyone to say when using the top end and cutting very small lines or dots which system was used.

I tried a friend's Lindsay the other day and I'm affraid I hated it. For one thing there was a constant stroking in the hand whilst at rest and secondly I had to shake or tap it to get it working; then if I wanted more power I also had to have more speed. Don't get me wrong, for fine bulino type work it'd be fantastic but then again so is the GraverMach as it's such an advance on the Max.

As a matter of interest, my friend admitted to me that if the Mach had been around when he bought his Lindsay he'd have probably gone with the Mach. But what you have to remember is we are professional engravers and will use our machines all day every day for 50 weeks of the year. I suppose you could look at the 2 systems like a Ferrari (Lindsay) and a tractor (GRS), and if you're a farmer which would you choose? There is nothing wrong with either system, it's just a matter of personal choice.

Remember, if you buy Lindsay it won't make you engrave like him, just as if you buy GRS it won't make you into Sam Alfano, the tools are just tools and it's the way you work with them that counts.

Marcus Hunt
7/9/2006 9:35:58 AM

Marcus.
I don't want to continue the TOOL WAR that you got into on the Knife Forum.
However I must point out that if you had to shake or tap the Lindsay Airgraver to get it to start you and your friend need to reread the instructions and reset the adjustable idle.
Another cause could be a humid or dirty air supply.
If you look back at Dan's initial post he was seeking information from an experienced user of the Lindsay Palm control.
That is why I directed him to Brian Marshall who has extensive experience
with both this and the other tools he was considering.
And no axe to grind on either account.
I have used and enjoyed GRS equipment for many years.
They make a fine line of equipment that I will continue to enjoy.
I have taught classes with it for over 20 years, together with the basic hand methods.
My Lindsay machine is foot pedal and I enjoy it also. As you did with the Lindsay machine, I gave the Palm control a short try. Not enough to form a fully considered opinion.
That's my reason for directing Dan towards Brian who has long term experience with all the different types and styles of tools.
I'm sure Dan will give all his options full consideration and join us in enjoying a productive engraving career.
Best wishes. John.



John Barraclough
7/9/2006 1:37:00 PM

Hi John

No way am I going to get involved with tool wars. I'm sorry if I miss read the thread. All I was trying to do was offer an opinion and my experience. I have no axe to grind either and was....until I got the Mach... going to go over to a Lindsay system, in particular the palm control. However, I was prepared to keep the Max in place for certain jobs. But now I've found a machine with more finess than I would have believed possible (compared with the Max) and I can use my old hand pieces.

If I appear to have deviated from the thread I apologise once more and will be more careful in the future but I did think forums were about discussion. Enough said, I'll keep quite in the future.

Cheers,
Marcus


Marcus Hunt
7/9/2006 2:16:38 PM

Marcus and John, Thanks for all of your input!! I hope that I havn't gotten you fellas upset. I fully respect and apreciate your opinions and advice and am glad you all are so willing to help. I'd be lost without it. I have talked to Rex a little too and am begining to lean towards one manufacurer, but will keep an open mind until I see/try the other tools.
Thanks again to all of you!!
Dan

Dan Grubaugh
7/9/2006 10:34:10 PM

I have been watching the "TOOL WARS" on the other forums with much amusement. As Marcus has stated, I think most people are missing the real point. We will all have our own favorites as far as tools and I might also add, techniques to help us achieve our end. Great work has and will still continue to be done with very basic crude equiptment right on up to the most advanced pieces of mechanics. BUT.......no matter what you are using your work will still be substandard if you do not have an artistic eye and know certain basics of design. The design is what always attracts the eye of the viewer and makes them want to explore the details of your craftsmanship. I will always take a great layout that is executed well over a microscopically superb execution that is layed out poorly and is breaking all the rules of design. Like I've always told my students.I can teach you how to cut a line, now what are you going to do with that line. The machine or tool does not make the artist.

Martin Rabeno
7/10/2006 8:20:22 AM

Dan,
I have tried every type of engraving system out there. I opted to go with the Lindsay Classic Air Graver. I loved it. When the Palm Control came out I was thinking how great it could be, because I noticed my foot and leg would get tired of rocking back and forth whenever I would have to lay in tons of small shading lines. So I bought the Palm Control. It only took a few hours to get used to it and then it was the most natural feeling way of engraving I could imagine. It makes it seem like your simply cutting through butter without having to always think about adding power. In other words; I would not only highly recommend the Lindsay Palm Control. I would sell my guns and motorcycles to buy one if I had too!
Otto Carter

William Carter
7/10/2006 9:10:13 AM

Hello Dan.
You did not start anything to get anyone upset.
Both Marcus and I have strong opinions.
As he correctly pointed out, that's what forums are for, information, questions and opinions.
My direction towards Brian Marshall was to get you a considered opinion from someone who has extensive experience with both of the systems.
Brian is not selling either brand of tools.
Just a final thought on the tools subject.
Both of the companies you are considering buying from produce fine products.
They are very good people and highly interested in the art of engraving and the progress of the industry.
They stand behind their products.
I believe both of them offer a 30 day return policy.
While I know you may not wish to go through the hassle of returning a tool,
it is good insurance if you are not truly satisfied.
You might want to confirm this matter with them while you make a choice.
As Marty said, and I did in a previous post, art is in the hands and head.
Great work can be created with the simplest tools.
Enjoy the process Dan, and best wishes.
John.

John Barraclough
7/10/2006 11:25:54 AM

OK...
What I want to know is who's nose grease works better? Marty's or Brian's?
:)
Sorry, I couldn't help myself guys....

Rex Pedersen
7/10/2006 3:38:18 PM

Ok, I'm not getting into the tool wars thing either.
I have nothing to say about the GRS tools because I am not qualified to say anything pro or con about them.
I do however own 2 AirGravers, the Classic with the standard foot control and the Chasing with the Palm Control.
Both tools use the air pressure to adjust the "power", the more the pressure the more the force applied to the piston, which increases the interia of the piston.
The length of stroke is adjusted by a ring on the boddy of the tool.
When the tool idles, you can barely feel it moving, the tool will not cut when the tool is idling properly. Anyone who uses these tools learn to adjust this down to the proper rpm and any shaking of the tool is not nessesary,,,,,ever.
With the Palm Control handle, the tool works much faster, as soon as the tool touches the metal you can be cutting, this speeds up your engraving more then I expected it would.
The tools with either control system are very sensitive and can be adjusted to any needs you have, perhaps because the tool is designed to be for the professional engraver. Yet they are very easy to learn how to use.

Another advantage to the Palm Control besides the speed it seeems to add to your engraving is that with the Palm Control handle you don't have a foot pedal. This is very helpful on large objects that require you to stand. Think about trying to use a foot pedal while standing, you have to put your weight on your other foot and keep the foot using the foot pedal up enough to have control with the foot pedal.
There are ways engravers have used to get around this, but they are not as easy or as comfortable.
The AirGraver with the Palm Control handle is something like having a powered push graver, think about what that can bring to your work as you develop your skills.
Also the Palm Control handle uses very little air volume, the advantage to that is I have 2 paintball tanks that give me about 8 hours of engraving each tank for portable use, it is really nice to be able to take your tool with you if needed.
At home, of course it hooks up to a standard air compressor.
Some people like Craftsman, some like Snap-on, the rest is up to you.
Tim

Timothy Clark
7/13/2006 12:57:12 AM

Thanks Tim! Starting to see that a lot of the selection proccess of choosing tools is personal preference or a person's likes/dislikes. John said a lot when he stated that work will always be done with anything from very crude tools, all the way to the most advanced tools available. I understand now that all tools will have their pro's and con's, but are capable of getting the job done.
Thanks agian to everyone, you all have been a great help!!

Dan

Dan Grubaugh
7/13/2006 9:42:49 AM