I am a newbie, (engraving for little over one year) and am learning slowly. One problem I'm still having is breaking the points on my onglettes the second I try to cut anything but a straight line! It doesn't matter which size of onglette I use, the tip is gone soon after starting. I tried grinding the faces at 45, 50 and 55 degrees. The foot is made by setting the pitch at 5 degrees and the yaw at 60 degrees each side. The foot is about 2.5mm in length. The gravers are GRS products. I'm using a Gravermax unit. Any ideas?

As an aside, I've been using a microscope for several months and my accuracy really improved, but just last week I bought the professional heavy metal turntable and I can't believe how much smoother my scrolls have become! I also sprung for a pre-sharpened Lindsay graver. It's remarkable how much cleaner it cuts tight curves, worth every penny. He also has put detailed tip geometry grinding instructions on his website, very nice.

Anyway, I really appreciate this website, I read all the posts religiously and have learned a lot. Thanks to all you pros who take the time to help not only your peers, but also the "fresh caughts".

Mark Sedlak



Mark Sedlak
7/14/2006 9:35:28 AM

Mark,
Glad you like the forum!
As for breaking the points, I'm not sure I can give you an exact answer. Ask 5 engravers how to sharpern tools and you'll get 5 answers. I think you are putting too long of a heel on the tool however. I've always found that sharpening onglettes was a "crap shoot" to get them right because you have to do the heel by hand. I just put on a heel and try it to see if it cuts OK. If not, I play with it until it does. Frankly, I try not to use them for much and use mostly a 90 square for the majority of the cuts. A well tapered 90 will do even the smallest work and is much easier to sharpen.
I'm sure others can add some more input and preferences as well.

Rex Pedersen
7/14/2006 10:15:32 AM

I have to ask this question, are you using an onglette for firearms engraving? If so, what aspect? Onglettes are generally far too narrow for doing anything other than cut straight lines, and the faces need to be ground relatively steep or as you're finding, they keep breaking. In the 28 years I've been engraving shotguns and rifles I've never used one. If I need a narrower cut I'll go to a lozenge but even these break if you attack the curve too sharply. Strangely enough I asked my father about onglettes just the other week as I thought there may be something I could do with a free one that came with a GRS handpiece and his reaction was much the same, "Why?" They are mainly used for jewellery and in particular stone setting I believe. I know in the Meek book he uses onglettes a lot but these are mainly die sinkers chisels.

I loved the Lindsay grind when I first used it and I still do for certain things, in particular silver when you can crank it over and get lovely flange cuts. But recently I've found on convex surfaces such as the fences/detonating of a shotgun/double rifle action and only yesterday whilst cutting a name and address on a rifle barrel it will not hold a point. It's great on the flat, in fact it's superb and cuts as you say, incredibly cleanly and tightly. But when I transpose that onto the awkward surfaces of a gun the point can't hold up. At first I thought it was me. I asked about it on another forum and was told it was possibly the tool steel I was using and SL suggested the cobalt. All I know is it breaks with ordinary tool steel gravers, yellow tang hss, glensteel and grs x7 and whether its 115 or 120 degrees. Has anyone else experienced this or seriously....is it just me and the way I cut?

I found what seems like an answer at the moment, and it seems to hold up to gun engraving but whether it'll give the perfecto Lindsay cut I don't know. Its grinding the yaw angle at 35 degrees with a 3 degree loft and then the primary heel at 32.5 degrees with a 17 degree loft. The face is at 50 degrees. It seems to work but the primary heels are a lot longer (nearly 1mm) than Lindsays and there does seem to be some relief.

And really Mark, that's it in a nutshell. You have to find what works for you. The PowerHone and angle fixtures are great in that they replicate the same angles each time. But in the past each individual engraver would find the whet that worked for them and what suited one person didn't necessarily work for another.

Keep at it, but ask yourself if you really need an onglette? Square and Lozenge will work for most things with some flats thrown in for lettering and rounded flats for carving.

all the best
Marcus

Marcus Hunt
7/14/2006 10:46:47 AM

There you go, Rex got there before me!

As a post script, don't be fooled that a lozenge or onglette will be better for shading. It's just not the case at all as any experienced engraver will tell you.

Marcus

Marcus Hunt
7/14/2006 10:50:58 AM

Intersting.......I've been using an onglette for years. Started out using them because that's what Meek was using in his book. WhenI first started engraving, pre guild era, this book was the only scource of any sort of instruction. I didn't find any particular problem with them engraving firearms and had a variety of sizes to fit the job at hand. Sharpening and doing a heel is a crap shoot and I just did this by holding the graver in my hand at the heel angle that I was used to holding it at and with a rotating wrist movement just laying in the heel. Just like in Meeks book.
However....I am now using various "V" shaped gravers as they are much easier to sharpen with the new GRS equiptment. I still use the onglettes on occassion and have one that I slightly rounded the tip/heel for doing rool die type of lettering. It works pretty good for that.

Martin Rabeno
7/14/2006 12:36:37 PM

Thanks Rex & Marcus,

Well it seems that I am not a total screw-up! I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who breaks tips. I had thought that my 90 degree graver was doing a better job, but I was under the impression, erroniously as I see, that onglettes were the instruments of choice for shading.

In answer to your question Marcus, I have not yet graduated to firearms, although this is my intent. So far, it's been small knives, belt buckels, and a lot of practice plates. I am just starting to learn how to do curved surfaces and it's frustrating. I haven't tried the Lindsay graver on any curves yet, so I don't know if his "carbalt" tips holds up on the convex surfaces. I fell into engraving by a back door. I was a professional artist once upon a time, in the dark ages. I specialized in etchings and pen and ink drawings. So I had a solid basis in how to shade with lines only. As a hobby, (one of dozens I'm afraid) I took up wood turning and had turned a fine ivory fountain pen that I was going to scrimshaw. After I studied the pen for a while I thought that deeper engraving would be more dramatic. Then I began to study scroll design, which led me to "certain websites", and the rest is history. I've jumped into metal engraving with both feet and am having a ball. Although my other artistic endeavors are suffering from inattention. By the way, I still haven't had the guts to engrave the convex surface of that ivory pen!

Anyway, I'm just not going to worry about onglettes any more and will try to find the best tip geometry for 90 - 120 degree gravers for my style of work.

Thanks for all your help,

Mark Sedlak

Mark Sedlak
7/14/2006 1:11:19 PM

Mark, I used a #3 onglette for many years on firearms, using a Gravermeister. The yellow handle onglettes held up by far the best. A 65 or 70 degree face and a very, very narrow heel with about 6 degrees of lift made for good cutting. I still like the onglette but for harder steel the square carbide works best for me. As with the square graver, I did all of the scroll cutting with the onglette, from outline to shading to background removal. As you try various tools over time you will settle on what works for you. It is a fun trip, at least after it is over.

Sam Welch
7/14/2006 1:50:42 PM

Again, great info guys!

After reading Rex's, Marty's and Sam's posts, I now believe that I've ground the face too shallow and that I have WAY TOO MUCH heel length. I'm going to experiment some more just to see if I can get the onglettes to be a viable tool for me (especially since I own 5 of them, I may as well try to use them!)

Thanks again guys,

Mark Sedlak


Mark Sedlak
7/14/2006 2:58:34 PM

Marty and Sam, it's really interesting to hear that you use onglettes. I'm really interested to learn as to how and/or why you use them, and do they offer any advantage over a square/lozenge? As I see it because of the shape it would be difficult to execute English scroll because of the lack of spring in the tip but with air assist maybe that doesn't matter so much. Am I wrong on this point? Also, how do you guys set the heel? Do you just eyeball it on a whet stone?

Marcus

Marcus Hunt
7/15/2006 3:50:01 AM

Hi Marcus. I started learning to engrave about 40 years ago and the onglette was one of the main tools at that time. Carbide squares were not readily availabe, nor were many of the things we take for granted today. And you know the old adage about teaching an old dog new tricks. I learned on the onglette and it took a long time to change over. The onglette to me seems to be very much a hammer and chisel tool and worked quite well with the gravermeister when I went that route. I put the heel on as you surmise eyeballing it on a ruby stone. The heel is only some thousandths of an inch wide. Tilting the tool to the outside of a curve helps preserve the tip and makes less burr. Regards...

Sam Welch
7/15/2006 7:30:24 AM

Hi Marcus
I'm pretty muck in the same boat that Sam is with the onglettes. I have been grinding mine down out of square stock to the size I wanted. Basically I'm using a 55 degree face and eyeballing the heel just like Sam. Racheal Wells had a good article in a recent newsletter about sharpening them and doing the heel. I still do hammer and chisel style cutting but more and more I'm giving that up for the power handpieces due to back suregery a few years back. I used the onglette also for animals and found no problem with it. However I'm shying away from thenm thanks to the consistancy I'm getting with various V shaped tools using the GRS sharpening fixtures. It is very true that you do not need a itsy bitsy tool to cut fine lines. A good sharp tip and a light touch is all you need no matter what shape tool you use. I do like the onglettes for gold lines. I feel secure with the more vertical sides and slightly rounded bottom for undercutting. Probably just a mental thing from years past. But then again I have always been called mental.

Martin Rabeno
7/15/2006 9:18:33 AM

Mark as far as cutting on convex surfaces goes I cut a large amount of steel dies that measure between 1 3\4" to 2" in dia. anywhere between 35 to 55 RC and I have great results with both the Lindsay Point Grind used with Lindsay Carbolt square stock,Super Momax, WKE45,and other quality steels. I was unable to use square graver,s while die cutting before I was introduced to Lindsay,s point geometry , because of breaking points on entry. Before that I used ongletts made from various carbides. I also agree with both Marty and Sam on the place that the onglett holds in firearms engraving the shape was and still is used by a lot of great gun engravers the late "Master" Frank Hendrecks being only one of them.

Hope I helped
Bill Grencavich

William Grencavich
7/16/2006 3:05:00 PM

I have been using the onglette since I began to engrave a little over 30 years ago. I have found that I have better control with the onglette versus the square. With a square blank and my dual angle powerhone I grind the face angle at 50 degrees with 100 grit diamond lap. After that I take the tool out of the powerhone fixture and place it in a steel Belgium type holder..the kind you would use with a hammer and chisel. Now I grind both sides of the chisel evenly on both sides still using the 100 grit diamond lap. The last step is to put the chisel back into the dual angle fixure at 15 degrees and I am ready to do the heel with 1200 grit diamond lap..leaving the dual angle fixture loose and rolling the chisel back and forth without power. Now you have 50 degree face...15 degree heel..which gives you a total of 65 degrees..always check the sides of the onglette..make sure they are perfectly even. The problem I had was breakage on the tip of the tool when I tried to cut in the clock wise direction..then I started to cut in the counter clock wise direction..and I eliminated the problem of breaking the tips. I cut all my scrolls in the counter clock wise direction. I know this sounds crazy, but it works for me. I also find I have better control over the tool if I am standing over the work whether using hammer and chisel or power assist. I hope I didn't make this too confusing.

Yours truly,
JJ Roberts-Manassas, VA

J.J Roberts
7/18/2006 9:22:47 AM

Hi guys!

Just a note: following some of the comments in the above posts, I have reground one of my 90 degree gravers with the Lindsay tip geometry and it works great for fine to medium lines. Good control. I still want to recut a few of the onglettes with the much shorter heel that everyone mentioned.

J.J., if your crazy, then so am I (no comments please). I also find that I have better control and less tip breakage by cutting scrolls in a counter-clockwise direction, but with the new tips, I have been able to cut both directions. Although, I find it is still smoother going counter-clockwise.

Mark Sedlak

Mark Sedlak
7/18/2006 4:06:50 PM

I think I'll have to try setting up an onglette just for the hell of it. I suppose we each cut with what we feel is most comfortable, and if we're commercial, what is quickest and easiest to sharpen. I'm still having trouble with the Lindsay point busting on me on those convex surfaces, any advice will be very gratefully received. I want to persevere with it because it really does cut well when it's working.

Mark and JJ, I don't think you're crazy. I think we all find it easier to cut in what feels a more natural direction. Mine too is anticlockwise, off the back of the hand. But JJ, when you say you cut all scrolls anticlockwise, does this mean that you start in the centre of a scroll an work outwards? I'm trying to picture this in my mind's eye and it makes me feel most peculiar! I'm getting spiral images like when Ka was trying to hypnotise Mowgli in Disney's 'Jungle Book', LOL. It's a surreal thought.

Marcus Hunt
7/19/2006 4:50:22 AM

Could it be we are all right-handed?

Sam Welch
7/19/2006 8:08:06 AM

Marcus...I cut all scrolls in the counter clockwise direction. I don't start in the middle, but I made a C then go back and work in the middle out to connect it. I work standing at a pedestal in the middle of the shop so I can walk around the work without stopping. In other words I can do a scroll in one pass no wasted motion. Also at the age of 67 I have no back problems. As for working on a convex area I would use a hammer and chisel if you are having a problem. If you ever get to the USA and are in the No. VA area look me up. I could take you down to the NRA museum. Keep us posted and keep up the good work.

Sam...I am right handed.

JJ Roberts-Manassas, VA

J.J Roberts
7/19/2006 10:08:01 AM

Good morning guys...
Just a few thoughts on the onglettes and grinds. I also find my cuts for scrolls are better/easier when I cut in a counter clockwise direction. Being a "rightie" I can pivot on my thumb and I can also see what I am doing better as this direction is cutting towards me a little bit more. With the advent of the power engravers we tend to hold the graver a little bit different by placing our index finger on top of the tool as we guide our graver along. I most often hold my tool with my thumb along side the edge as I do when I am not using power. This also brings up how I grind away the excess material of my graver tip. I know that many engravers who use a power assisted tool grind away the top portions of their gravers almost in a facet type of grind. I find this very uncomfortable on my thumb as I cut. This also doesn't work out with hammer and chisel as I press down with my left pinky to hold the graver into the metal.I have a sharp edge pressing into me. What I do is grind off the top flat usually at a 10-15 degree angle ( or whatever I'm in the mood for ". Then I taper the sides down with a flat grind that knocks the sharp facet off and I can rest my thumb against this. It's sort of the same way that is listed in the GRS diagram for tool sharpening. This saves my bloody fingers a bit. Now with an onglett or flat graver you don't have this problem as the sides are already flat.
Just a few morning ramblings..now I need more coffee.

Martin Rabeno
7/19/2006 10:12:11 AM

OK,
I'll jump back in here and give my 2 cents for what that is worth too.
I tend to cut my scrolls mostly clockwise but that means that I'm turning the vise counter clockwise. I'll start at inside or outside depending on the direction of the scroll. So, I'm not sure if I'm doing the same as the rest of you or not. Depends on whether you are talking about the vise or graver rotation. It really doesn't matter, whatever works but I was just interested. I thought for sure that I cut the scrolls in a counter clockwise direction but I had to go sit down at my bench and actually see how I did it.
Sometimes you have to cut the other direction but I think everyone has one way that works best. I try to teach my students to practice in both directions to become comfortable doing it both ways. There are situations when you must cut in a certain direction.
Now... I wonder if Andrew Biggs cuts in an oposite direction because he is located "down under"....
:)

Rex Pedersen
7/19/2006 11:06:15 AM

NO REX.....down under I believe they have to cut upside down.....just like they are standing upside down so they don't fall off the earth..
Actually I was referring to the direction in which I usually cut my scroll not the vice rotation. It is important to be able to cut in both directions, from the middle out and from both ends into the middle as the need arises.
But what do they do in England since they are to our "right" or is it the "left".. HHHmm depends on the direction I'm facing.

Martin Rabeno
7/19/2006 11:42:51 AM

Hi guys

I cut my scrolls with the graver going anti-clockwise and turning the vice cockwise.

Does this mean I'm cutting convex with a genteler curve and the other way would be concave with a tighter curve? Even though it is exactley the same curve and length of line. Sounds silly but worth a thought.

Marty and Rex, you guys have no idea how hard it is to engrave upside down in this part of the world. I have to really anchor the vise down to the work bench otherwise it keeps falling down through the roof of the house :) !!!!!!

Cheers
Andrew

Andrew Biggs
7/19/2006 5:53:50 PM

I am left handed and Don Glasser and Ralph Bone once told me that left handers cannot engrave. I'm still plugging along but do you think it would help if I moved to Austrailia? (hope I spelled that right)

K. David Gruber
7/20/2006 5:11:12 PM

So, David, which direction of scroll cutting is easiest for a lefty? If you folks will indulge my scientific upbringing...I know for a fact that fat guys like me weigh just as much "down under" as on this side of the globe. And, no, it didn't help to stand on my head. But you really got to watch that coriolis parameter because if you get too much vorticity in your scroll you might just go down the drain!!!

Sam Welch
7/20/2006 6:33:05 PM

But when you go down the drain down under...you spin in the opposite direction. Now that can affect the centrifical forces working against your graver. So should we lean in or out? Another words, is it better to have an "innie" or an "outie"?

Martin Rabeno
7/20/2006 7:43:50 PM

I cut in different directions. Sometimes I cut on the side of the scroll closest to my body going counter clockwise and turning the vise clockwise and sometimes it seems easier to cut with the graver farther away going counter clockwise and rotating the vise counterclockwise. If any of you are left handed I would appreciate some input because I'm breaking and dulling gravers no matter what I do and most of my stuff is done in white and yellow gold and platinum. I recently took a class from Sam Alfano and cleared up a few things for me and even he had to sit down and figure some of the things out.

K. David Gruber
7/20/2006 9:02:15 PM

I've been to Australia, seen the water swirl the other way, don't know if I cut better clockwise or counter-clockwise (anti-clockwise for those in the southern hemisphere), sometimes I break tips quickly and sometimes they seem to last for hours, haven't really figured out how to use an onglette (which is where this whole thing started), attended class taught by Rex so I am prone to use a 90 but have tried the 115 (Lindsay style) and the 120 and have no art training or background. I think that covers it. I just started engraving in March and reading all the posts and other info on the net I have come to this conclusion...everyone has their own method that works best for them and all we can do is try something to see if it works and ask the experts. Boy am I glad this forum is here. I really appreciate all of you that started with out any experts available to ask.

Thanks,

Kevin

Kevin Monahan
7/20/2006 10:47:26 PM

Kevin,
You are supposed to tell everyone that you know it ALL after attending my class.....
:)
Seriously, as you said everyone seems to have a certain way to accomplish the same end result. As a beginner you should try all of the methods and find what works best for you. On the same note, once you get a bit more accomplished, you should "try it again" to see if the methods that didn't work for you as a fresh beginner will work better as you get more control and feel. I've seen some beginners get "stuck" using only one method that may or may not be right. It takes longer to undo bad habits than to learn new. Keep an open mind and don't be afraid to different methods. I guess you could say that I'm an "old dog" and I know that I'm still learning new tricks every day. An example of this was that I would always pound gold in wire borders in with a hammer and punch. I was told that using a GraverMax/GraverMach made this much easier. I never really tried it until one of my classes when I didn't have a chasing hammer handy so I tried it using the GraverMach. It was SO much faster and easier....
Not every method will work for everyone but don't be afraid to try new things.

Rex Pedersen
7/21/2006 8:07:33 AM

Rex..we've talked about this before..but I still can't get the dang gold inletted with the handpiece and still knock it in with a hammer and punch......must be set in my ways. It's just like different people prefer different stroke speeds.....bio-chemical for sure

Martin Rabeno
7/21/2006 8:39:43 AM

Yea, but you're REALLY an old dog........
:)
Try it some again. Use about 1100 stokes per minute using a 901 or Magnum. You can buzz it in like crazy and if you are using gold a "bit" too large you can angle the punch slightly to "walk" the gold along and not leave a lot of clean up. Use a brass punch with slight matted finish on the face. I usually just spin the face on a 260 grit power hone wheel.

Rex Pedersen
7/21/2006 8:58:45 AM

Rex, I have always found the pneumatic hammer works well for setting gold. The only time I use the hammer and punch is to set platinum because it work hardens immediately and needs to be set with that first solid hit. I also find soft iron inlay easier to set with hammer and punch but it can be done with air. And my mind is always open...so don't make the mistake of venturing therein! A last thought...I have never broken a tip while setting gold.

Sam Welch
7/21/2006 2:09:56 PM

Hey Sam,
I was going to make some comment about YOU being an old dog too, but you are just "Classic"....
Good point about the platinum. To be honest, I've never done the iron.
Ralph Bone told me years ago about using the pneumatic hammer years ago and said it was great. I just never got around to try it. He was so right. Now, I'm not sure if he does his iron inlays that way or not but he does enough of that so I'm guessing he may.
Yea, you don't break any tips but you sure can mushroom the end over.... Seems no matter what, sharpening seems to be our main job doesn't it?

Rex Pedersen
7/21/2006 2:20:48 PM

I've used the brass punch method since first getting my Max. My dad made up some strange brass tip by brazing a screw to a steel rod. The gunsmith I used to work with turned me up a dedicated one for a QC holder which is great.

Marti, you really should persevere with it just like Rex says. It is so fast and accurate compared with the old hammer and punch method. For damscene/overlay work it is invaluable. I would hate to have to go back to hatching with a knife tool and then beating on with a copper punch. I won't say how long it takes now but to get the gold for an animal head onto the steel used to take the best part of half a day if the hatching went well. If it went badly or the steel was hard it could take as long as a whole working day! Needless to say, everything is so much faster now and I can normally finish a gold animal head in a day because all the donkey work has been relegated to the waste bin.

And Rex, I didn't even used to use a 901 let alone a Magnum, my little Monarch used to do it all!!! Nowadays though I do like the way the 901 works with the Mach especially around the 1500spm mark for damascene but quite often I up it to around 2500spm for lettering as I like the way you can push the gold around and into every crany at that speed.


Marcus Hunt
7/22/2006 6:04:24 PM