I recently aquired a Winchester model 42 Pigeon Grade that is very nicely engraved and has gold inlays of birds and pointers. I was told that the work was done by a son of Winston Churchill. I was also told his name was Ivan. I found the initials "L.C." under the paw of a pointer and well hidden in the grass. So much for Ivan; unless he spells it with an "L". So who is "L.C."? Does Winston Churchill have a son with the initial, "L"? If so, does he follow in his father's footsteps as an engraver? What is his name and how do I authenticate the work? If not, then who is "L.C."? Does anyone have any ideas about who may have done this work? I would very much like to have a name to put with the initials. Any help would be apreciated.
Thanks for your time,
Sheppard Burton?

Sheppard Burton
1/13/2009 6:01:01 PM

Sheppard, I thought there would be others jump in but guess not. Winston Spencer Churchill had a son named Randolph. I have never heard anything about "our" Winston's family but feel sure if he had a son engraving it would be widely known. The initials LC don't ring a bell for me. S

Sam Welch
1/18/2009 11:05:40 AM

Well sombench munkeenutz Sam...I truly was hoping that someone out there would know who L.C. was--or might be. I have another clue. Forgive my ignorance of engraving, but to my delight, I saw the same pattern (game scene) in a Winchester Shotgun book by W.L.Wilson. It is a Winchester engraving pattern 42-5 as shown in the book Winchester Shotguns, W.L> Wilson, pp 154-155 shows both sides. Mine, however, utilizes gold inlays as well, as the book says was another option. The one in the book was done by Nick Kusmit. I suppose L.C. was a student of Kusmit (?).
Being as there are fairly few Pigeon Grade 42s, and the "DeLuxe" grade checkering pattern (double diamond forearm)was used, I would be surprised if the original owner had a Yahoo from under a rock somewhere working on his gun and copying a Winchester pattern. I would be even MORE surprised if a Yahoo from under said rock could do such fine work without the coaching words of a master coaxing him on to the best work he was capable of; and not being satisfied until the etching on the white metal looked juuuusssssst so.
Although I have never engraved anything, I laid brick and stone for thirty years. It was the teachings of the old curmudgeons that I learned the most from,"It don't matter if ya jest lay one brick in a course--be PROUD of that sombench...". Time was not a concern; "That'll come later, just make sure it's right."Measure it twice-cut it once."--"Damn boy, you've cut it 3 times and its still too short..." Four years later, I was called a mason; but in truth I had a long way to go, I just didn't know it yet...
Somehow,one day, as I lay brick on an especially nice custom house years later, I recalled all those words. Some I could attribute to a certain mentor. Others were from a fog of yelling I did best trying to listened to--because I was only being told once(if I had a nickel for every, "Hey! Prentice Boy",{it didn't matter if you were 14 y.o. or 50 y.o.; if you were an apprentice, you were "PRENTICE-BOY"} I'm only gonna tell ya onct...", and THEY MEANT IT...only once). If they hadn't liked me I wouldn't have been told at all. As I recalled those words, it came to me things had come full circle. I now had 6 apprentices under me (whom I had hand picked from my young laborers) "on the wall", trying to out do each other, and I already knew which ones would make it and which ones would falter and drop out. I understood why the old men didn't waste their time on some ...But I used the same old lines, "If ya just put in one brick in a course, be proud of that sombench!"--"Worry about getting it right, time will come later."--"Do we have any company "BENIFITS" boss?(WTF !!) "Hell yes! We have "A" benefit.That's"ONE"benifit. The company benifit is, "ya' got a damn JOB!"...Benifits--CONSTRUCTION??--I never in my life--where do they think they are??? The Union???--->ALAS: I had become the master mason; and a curmudgeon in my own right...I'd tell'em just ONCE--unless I liked 'em a lot...About 1/2 of the brick/stone masons in Tidewater,Va. did a part of their "time" under me...the other half should have...and some--the trade ran off...
I like to think of some aspiring young eagerly earnest engraver to be in Winchester's custom shop undergoing scrutiny in agonizing fear of being repremanded by MR. Kusmit, combined with the knowledge that he only had ONE CHANCE--IT HAD TO BE 100%TRUE to the eyes of a master. And of course, he was working on my gun. His initials were L.C. , I s'pose.
Ring any bells now?
PLEASE?
Perhaps the fact that it IS a Winchester Custom Shop scene(42-5) we are talking about will help jog a memory or two...

Can I ramble or what?? Sorry folks. But I appreciate your help...and again,
Thanks,

Sheppard Burton
The Gunrunner,LLC
709 25th St.
Va. Bch. , Va. 23451
757-425-2936
757-353-8535(cell)

Sheppard Burton
2/2/2009 3:17:47 PM

C'mon folks...SOMEONE out there has to know an engraver with the initials L.C.--- I mean--the chances are greater than not that SOMEONE with those initials engraves...ESPECIALLY since the initials exist and are prominint on the side of my 42... As a dealer with a signed piece of beautiful work on a Pigeon Grade 42; I'd like to know...as would ANYONE who might wish to buy the gun in the future...
Next point of interest:
How can one contact Winston Churchill? I have tried. I am getting no help from anywhere...If one of you could possibly forward my mailing address, email address, or phone number(s) to him, I would greatly appreciate it...

Thanks,

SHEPPARD BURTON

THE GUNRUNNER,LLC
709 25TH ST
VA BCH, VA 23451
757-425-2936
757-353-8535 *(CELL)

Sheppard Burton
5/27/2009 7:49:36 AM

Call the Cody Firearms Museum in Wyoming....one of the historians there will tell you who LC was. 307-587-4771. Regards, Rick.

Rick Scruggs
5/28/2009 7:52:04 AM

As they say.. A picture is worth a thousand words!
Since it is a 12-5 pattern or a copy of it might make it harder to figure out. I have a couple of possible names but it a picture might help.
There are a LOT of engravers that have done those patterns in the past but some have thier own style attached. You can e-mail me at fega@fega.com with some photos and perhaps I can help a bit better.
Rex

Rex Pedersen
5/28/2009 8:57:26 AM

You might try Glen Jensen who is the historian for Winchester (Browning)in Morgan,Utah. Glen is extremely knowledgeable and has been with Winchester since the pioneers crossed the plains. Well almost!

Glenn Anthony
6/16/2009 3:30:28 PM

OK folks! The mystery has been unravelled.
L.C. is none other than Larry Curry; a gunsmith/engraver/stock carver who now resides in Tennessee. From what I understand he can make a model 12 (or 42) from a block of steel and a walnut tree. I met a fellow named Larry Ford, who knows Mr. Curry and had a Model 12 "Curry" shotgun.
Larry(Ford) says his Curry shotgun couldn't be distinguished from the real thing except it didn't say "Winchester" on it. According to him, he had a gun into which Mr. Curry had put some 75' of gold wire into the receiver alone. Although my gun is not an "original" Winchester custom shop gun, I am pleased to say that it is a beautiful specimen, and at last I know the identity of the engraver. I am quite sure that there are more Model 42s out there that are "supposed" to be done by the custom shop, but are truly after market guns than there are "honest" model 42s with custom shop details. Be it what it may, I am proud to own the nice little Pigeon Grade 42...Or could it be a "Currybird" ?

Sheppard Burton
The Gunrunner,LLC
709 25th St
Va Bch , Va 23451
757-425-02936
757-353-8535_cell&shop phone
thegunrunnerllc@hotmail.com

Sheppard Burton
7/13/2009 3:56:10 PM

As a post script:
I never did get any response from Winston Churchill, but I hope he is still alive and well in Vermont, and applying his crafts as only an artist can.
Sheppard Burton
The Gunrunner,LLC
thegunrunnerllc@hotmail.com

Sheppard Burton
7/13/2009 4:05:48 PM