I am starting to put my thoughts together on the Seminar I will be doing after the Annual Meeting and Show this January in Reno. What I would like to know from our members is.......what points, details or techniques you would like me to cover while I do my demonstration. Your input will help me make this relevant.
Thanks
Marty

Martin Rabeno
8/2/2007 9:11:32 AM

Marty,
I would like to see a breakdown of the use of lines, dots, pick removal, etc. and where these are most effectively used. Thanks for your time to put this presentation together. P.S.Also the use of shadows.
Regard,Glenn

Glenn Anthony
8/2/2007 10:32:30 AM

Marty,
Would like info or the "How-to" on foregound and background.

Thank your for your effort.
Roger

Roger Henrichs
8/2/2007 12:12:38 PM

Hi Marty

1. How you achieve variouse shades of grey to black to build up the scene.

2. Do you go from light to dark or visa versa or just go all over the place.

3. do you leave a slight bur behind with the dots as some Italian engravers do.

4. Finishing the scene. Do you sand at any stage during or when finished.

5. Correct minimilist placement of lines/dots to achieve results without going into overkill. At what stage is overkill and it starts turning into a mess (overguilding the lilly!!)

6. The optical illusion between what you have actually done and what the customer fills in their mind. See # 5

7. Fixing areas that have to be toned back.

8. The importance of extra sharp tools and making a cut/dot, not an indentation which won't hold ink.

9. This is the most important one of the lot........Is it really true what they say about bald men?????

Cheers
Andrew

Andrew Biggs
8/2/2007 5:40:49 PM

Hey Andrew,
You have anything to do with that 7 legged sheep?

Roger

Roger Henrichs
8/2/2007 5:48:15 PM

Hi Marty.

Thank you for agreeing to do a bulino seminar in Reno.
If it is anything like the great graphic seminar you put together about PhotoShop it will be a barn burner.
That one was a real wing-ding winner, just outstanding.

Your bulino is so “readable” from any direction, unlike some other work.
Also, even though it is delicate and refined it does not look as if a strong wind would erase it from the metal.
It has a degree of practicality for an item that could be handled and used with care.
It would be very helpful to know how you balance these things and still manage to maintain such a fine artistic presentation.

Best wishes and many thanks, John.



John Barraclough
8/2/2007 8:31:54 PM

Roger............I'm shocked!!!!!

I was hoping that story wouldn't get out of the country and I did tell the reporter to keep my name out of it as I was given name suppression!!!

Cheers :-)
Andrew

Andrew Biggs
8/2/2007 10:59:26 PM

I was thinking ...once in a while that does happen.........perhaps a good tool to use as part of the seminar would be some contructive critique of bulino scenes that FEGA members have done and feel need some tweeking. Sometimes what can upgrade a work is a very simple adjustment of something. This is something that we must all do as we work on our own projects. What do you think? Or would too many egos be destroyed.

Martin Rabeno
8/3/2007 11:59:20 AM

Yip, sounds good to me Marty

I don't know that egos would be a problem. If it is, then they shouldn't open work up for critique. Never ask the question if you don't want to hear the answer!!!

I'll hopefully be bringing a couple of bits and pieces so you can use them along with whatever others bring if you like. One warning though.......I cry easily!!!

It's a nessassary part of the learning process to have it pointed out what can be improved upon etc.

As John B pointed out. This is going to be a fantastic seminar along with Sam's and Bob's. I'm really looking forward to them.

Cheers
Andrew

Andrew Biggs
8/3/2007 7:17:35 PM

Andrew
We have done public critiques before and they have not gone over well. I would rather have pictures of engravings ahead of time, that i can review and redraw to make some design points as part of what I try to accomplish as I think things out for myself as I work. Sort of like when you sent me your scroll layouts to help you out. I don't plan on doing this as a bashing i know it all type of thing but rather as a constructive critique like I used to do when I was teaching art in school. Hopefully this can be a little background prior to the live demos. Let me rip a few of yours apart for the world to see. Then I will go and scurry into my corner and vanish.

Martin Rabeno
8/3/2007 8:00:50 PM

Hi Marty

Yip count me in. I'll try and get some good clear and crisp photos for you to work with and send them through to you.

Cheers
Andrew

Andrew Biggs
8/3/2007 8:43:44 PM

Marty,

If time allows it would be helpful for me to hear and see your thoughts on design. For example the alignment problem you pointed out to me a couple of years ago on my shotgun has really stuck with me. Values and how they relate to each other in a scene is always a challenge. What should I make darker and what should be lighter. Focal points, balance, all of the good old art design fundamentals. You should be able to fit in a couple of semesters worth in an hour.

Lee Griffiths
8/4/2007 1:46:10 PM

Lee
What yu are asking for is exactly why I want to try the critique part in addition to the technique part. Just as a few simple hints or pointers to help things out that people can think about as they work. Do you have any pictures you can send me that I can work on?

Martin Rabeno
8/4/2007 3:23:52 PM

Martin,

First of all I would like to say that I enter this post with caution and curiosity. And I would like to say that I respect you and your work,and consider your tecnique very fine.

My question to you is in concern with the technique and critique portion of this seminar. As you know this technique was made popular by the Italians; even in Gardone, Valtrompia, Italy to Brescia, Italy. This technique has varying degrees of execution. Meaning that differant practioners of this style execute in slightly different ways.

How is one to critique this process,unless he has mastered them all? Even the American Banknote sytle of engraving which is sometimes considered bulino is executed in an extrememly precise way--especially the portrait engravings of this process.

As I said before, I cautiously question this process of critiquing, unless one has mastered all of them.

Please forgive my curiosity, I mean to offend no one. The only purpose for asking this question is to help me understand what is meant by this.

a student of engraving, M A Smith


Mark Smith
8/9/2007 5:49:06 PM

Mark
I understand your caution and I agree with you. I am not sure what you are calling Bulino. Although I think I know.Let me say all I have been asked to give a seminar on is how I do it. Nothing more and nothing less. No way is there enough time to cover 35 years of developed technique. All I can do is give a few pointers and somewhat of a demonstration. All a contructive critque will do , I hope, as a small part of the seminar would be to help me illustrate some compositional concerns that we all should have as we develope a scene. This is totally on a volunteer basis and I would be picking and choosing what would help me illustrate the points at hand. Sort of as I pointed out some this about your work when you asked me to critique it when we were in Reno last year. Whatever I have to say.people can take it or leave it. It is just my way of doing it for those who want to hear it.
This is rather a quick response and explanation to your post. I will be unable to elaborate on this for a week or so as I will be leaving unexpectedly for a family emergency in the morning.

Martin Rabeno
8/9/2007 6:30:38 PM

Hello Martin,

It is my sincere hope that your family emergency is not a serious matter. My regards.

I enter into this post with apprehension and caution. I understand now through your post-description and the article-description in the Engraver, what you will be instructing us about regarding your technique of lines and dots.

The piece that I showed you in Reno, was not for you to critique, it was to illustrate that the stipple dot technique that I was practicing at that time was very detailed and precise. This technique of stipple dot is also practiced in Italy, but it is not that well known here in America. But I know popular engravers use this technique.

The techniques of bulino that I am familar with, are executed with lines and dots, and stipple dot, and the American banknote engraving which is sometimes called bulino. In Euorpe and the UK, collectors seem to prefer the dots and lines technique, but this process does not wear well. Some of these individuals prefer to hang them on the wall and view them under magnification for long periods of time. But here in America, where the collecter uses his firearms, the technique of the American banknote style wears much better.

My question to you is will you be instructing us in this techniuqe as well?

This past January in Reno, a kind Lee Griffiths pointed out to me the work of Robert Swartley on a lever action piece. I had never before seen the execution of the American banknote style on a firearm. I found it most intrigueing. Upon returning to Utah, I began to collect every book on this process in an attempt to learn all that I could about it. Meeting a former employee of the Bureau of Printing & Engraving, he pointed me in the right direction. It is my hope to learn all that I can of this process.

I hope all is well with you and yours, and Thank you for your response.

M A Smith

Mark Smith
8/10/2007 1:35:46 AM

Hi Mark
I am off to the airport in a few minutes and chugaluginig coffee as i try to give you a quick answer to your post.
I will be showing my version of lines and dots..which is what I do and what you looked at in my pieces in Reno. I will take task with your comment that this technique does not hold up well. As you mentioned to me in Reno while showing me your work, you said it is very delicate and will wipe out if not handle carefully.
If you look at some of the things that have been posted to mty request for what to demonstrate you will see there is a lot more to doing a successfull engraving other than how to make a line or dot which my friends want me to try and explain to them. I hope i can.
You did ask me to critique you engraving of the Goat which if you recall, I was reluctant to do to your passionate defense of your stippling technique in past forum postings.
Thanks for the well wishes, I have a plane to catch.perhaps some the other people here can fill in for me while I am gone. Please don't take what I have said in the wrong way. I know you are very passionate about your work and I look forward to seeing more of it in Reno

Marty

Martin Rabeno
8/10/2007 7:57:01 AM

Hi Mark.
I hope you don't mind me jumping in again on this bulino thing.
As Glenn and Andrew and I were the ones that bugged and begged a reluctant Marty to do the seminar in the first place, I feel somewhat obligated to comment.

I am mindful of your earlier post showing the tools you use to produce your style of bulino artwork.
This is an unusual method, quite complex and something I had not seen used in your manner before.
You may recall some of my private emails to you and your lovely wife regarding it and the work you would see in person during your first year to display at the FEGA show last year.

Let me get to get to the point of why we asked Marty to do the seminar.
Marty is well known for his ability to produce fine bulino scenes with excellent artistic graphic value, reasonable durability and high readability.
These attributes are not always found in some otherwise excellent bulino presentations and I, for one happen to think they are highly desirable to most American clients.

Marty is a fine teacher and his seminars are always well prepared and understandable.
I can’t speak for Marty but I’m sure he would be the first to say that his way is not the only way to do things, but it works, and works well.
It is also a well proven, desirable, saleable commodity to many collector clients.
Further, many of us feel that being exposed to his proven methods would help us to improve in our own bulino presentations.

I’m glad that Lee Griffiths, who is also a great bulino artist, pointed out the wonderful banknote style engraving of our friend Robert (Bob) Swartley.
It has been my great honor to have studied under Bob in the past.
I am in complete awe of his work as are you and many other engravers.
It’s my great joy to own several of his wonderful art prints.
Bob has also produced the plates for printing some of the great scenic bottle labels for premium quality American wine.
These and his art prints are excellent sources of study for banknote engraving.
In class Bob always directed our attention to the study of the older dollar bill as a model.
And also books on pen and ink drawing which closely parallels banknote engraving technique.
You may find these things helpful in your efforts to study banknote engraving.

I hope that you attend and display your fine work at Reno again next year.
It will be a pleasure to see you and your family again.
I know we will all get a lot of inspiration and knowledge from the wonderful work on display and the Monday seminars.

Respectfully, John.


John Barraclough
8/10/2007 1:09:25 PM

Martin,

Godspeed on your airline experience.

I appreciate your response. I am certain the seminar will be a great one.

Thanks again Martin.


John Barraclough,

(Noelle says hello)

It is always good to verbally visit with you. My intention is to avoid any conflict or confusion. Your input is always welcome. In the past I may have treated these post poorly with my defense of a particular technique.

A bit of insight, as you already know, I was born in Germany and trained by a German in the old ways of hammer and chisel, for which is my primary form of execution. But I do dabble with powered hand pieces. Each year I attempt to study a new technique and implement it into my arsenal. Learning a new style or technique has been one of the driving interest of my assertive curiosity.

A previous mentor taught me the method of lines and dots technique using picks and other assortment of engravers. I've used this technique for years. Last year a customer approached me and asked if I could make some details darker; discussing my concerns with a colleague, he put me in touch with the stipple dot technique which I started practicing at that time. Concerning Banknote style engraving, I have accumulated a few books and an Bureau of Printing and Engraving; this individual has been kind enough to share some of the techniques which are surprisingly simple. It has been difficult to find anyone who practices this technique. Executing a new technique and learning a new technique makes me very excited. I'm also excited learning any new aspects of engraving.

It has been a benefit and I have learned a great deal by inter-acting in these forums.

Thank you for your insight. It is always welcome and appreciated.

M A Smith





Mark Smith
8/10/2007 11:11:31 PM

I think at the end of the day Marty will demonstrate his beautiful style of bulino with lines and dots. A style and method he has refined over many years

If Fracassi was doing the seminar then he would undoubtedly demonstrate the Fracassi way, Pedersoli the Pedersoli way and the same would apply to anybody giving a seminar.

What we do with that information is really up to us. We can take it on board or reject it. The choice is ours.

The critiquing part is really an extension of that and showing the willing participants how areas of their work can be improved upon. Again to be accepted or rejected. But the emphasis is on the words “willing participants” There is no suggestion of using unwilling participants.

It should be a fantastic seminar and one that I think we will all walk away from with some useful information and knowledge that can be used to further enhance our engraving art.

Cheers
Andrew


Andrew Biggs
8/10/2007 11:14:41 PM

Hi Mark

You mention getting hold of some books on banknote engraving.

Could you give us the titles please as I'd be quite keen to have a look at them.

Cheers
Andrew



Andrew Biggs
8/10/2007 11:18:14 PM

Hello Andrew,

Thank you for your input. Heres a list of the books; I have pamphlets and sample sheets if you are interested in those as well.

1852 Ormsby's Banknote Engraving
1952 The Story of American Bank Note Company
1924 Commercial Engraving and Printing
1917-1922 Catalogue of Banknotes of the Civil War in Russia, Vol 1

Each of these items are benefical. In the 1952 American Bank Note,there are 16 printed plates with multiple printed images which I use to measure the depths of the cuts; the printed image in ink is several thousandths of an inch thick. And the images are just spectacular to view.

Thanks again.

M A Smith





Mark Smith
8/11/2007 12:21:03 PM

Good discussion. I'm jumping in. We've all seen wonderful engravings from different engravers. Blair, Rabeno, Gamradt, Churchill, Swartley, Hunt and the list goes on. They all use techniques unique to themselves. I suggest that the reason we like certain pieces of work is not the technique as much as the composition and use of values. It's good black and white art. I sincerely believe that technique is always secondary to the composition (including but not limited to the placement and size of elements, use of values, amount of detail and where, etc..) With Marty we have the unique opportunity to receive instruction from someone who taught art and drawing for 3000 years and has considerable experience evaluating and advising students on ways to improve their work. Selfishly, I would like to hear Marty's thoughts on how and why he would compose an engraving or picture, what options he would consider and why, where the lights and darks would be or various options. After all of these considerations would come the decision of whether a particular technique lends itself best to what part of the composition. As Marty suggests a critique session may be a good way to do it and very helpful if a person has a piece they are just starting or a drawing they want to engrave. I'm thinking I should have a couple of drawings in the works and cash in on a free critique.

Lee Griffiths
8/11/2007 3:04:20 PM

Hi Lee

It's funny how you should mention Marty teaching for 3000 years. I was watching a documentory on TV about early man and I could have sworn that a few drawings on the back of the cave were done in the "Rabeno" style!!!!

Mark
Thanks for those book titles. Where did you get them from? are they easy to get or are they.............you really have to track them down type books?

Bank note strikes me as being very skillfull. When you see how the folds in a peice if clothing can be given such depth with a continuose line going from thick to thin.............it's pretty amazing.

It's certainley really interesting all the different styles and techniques that are used in the engraving world.

That was one of the things that really struck me about the show at Reno. The diversity of the work was a real marvel.

Cheers
Andrew

Andrew Biggs
8/11/2007 5:16:53 PM

Hello Lee,

I am appreciate of your artistic perspective, and I consider these very valid points. One thing I truly enjoy about firearm engraving is the differing philopsophies on balance, symmetry, and execution. I enjoy your perspective very much. Thank you.

Hello Andrew,

The 1852 Ormsby book is extremely rare and extremely difficult to find. I suggest multiple book dealers (and its expensive). The story of the American Banknote Company is kind of rare but I see it on eBay on occasion. The Commercial Engraving and Printing is rare, but I've seen it on eBay occasionally and they are under $100. The Russian currency Vol I, again occasionally on eBay. Perhaps book dealers and checking eBay from time to time.

On a different note, one of the things that makes the American Bank Note style of engraving appealing to me is the technique; there is no vice, no microscope, it is completely done by hand, with the hand resting directly flat on the surface of the workpiece or on the table adjacent to the workpiece and a loop of sorts in the one hand with a simple graver in the other hand. Each incision is done in shorter more controled strokes with the hand resting flat on the surface, there is far less chance of slipping and far more control.

Thank you gentlemen for your intelligent input.

M A Smith



Mark Smith
8/13/2007 12:11:46 AM

I find this thread interesting....I've read through this several times and each time the following observation stands out.

The thread starter requested "techniques" to cover during the presentation. Mark Smith has provided a suggestion to that request and has been met with what appears to be opposition to his technique.

It makes perfect sense that any presentation by a presenter will consist of methods mastered by that individual. This also renders that request somewhat ambiguous...at least from an "outsiders" perspective.

Whether a particular technique is considered acceptable or not, it is my understanding that one of the purposes of the Guild and this forum is to examine and explore ideas and methods rather than to suppress them. The art of engraving is and always has been a combination of art and thinking "outside of the box" to achieve innovative new compositions. The history books are filled with these folks who have accomplished just that.

Mr. Smith - I am working on a Biblical project (specifically from Revelations) that I will put to an antique eventually. I'm curious to learn more about your technique in order to determine if it will be a good avenue of approach for scenes that I will need to execute. I also engrave on many other mediums which is not limited to firearms. A technique which can be used to cross over into other mediums, such as surgical grade stainless steel, is highly desirable. Since the intention of this thread is to discuss ideas specifically for the Reno demonstration, it would be best to begin another thread devoted to a new discussion or to converse outside the forum altogether.


Thank-you and regards, Chris Malouf





Christopher Malouf
8/14/2007 6:58:50 PM

hi Mark . It is good to hear from your again I though you disappeared from the scene . I want to thank you for the info. on the books I would love to have them in my library .

and Chris , thanks to you too for your constructive comments and to all who have posted them .. ron p.

see all of you in reno .

Ron Nott
8/16/2007 4:18:47 PM

Hello Christopher Malouf,

(Please) My name is Mark, not Mr Smith.

I appreciate your intelligent opinion and observation. There is nothing more complicated in this life than perception. But for those who choose to find the truth of things, thru research, study & observation, perception can be an illuminating process.

I found your website and I like your work. I look forward to continuted conversations.

................Mark


Ron,

Its good to hear from you again. I hope you are busy and doing well. How are your apprentice students coming along? My apologies for not emailing, I will correct this mistake promptly. I wish you well.

................Mark

Mark Smith
8/18/2007 1:58:34 AM

Hi Mark.
I think the Mr. Smith that Mr. Malouf was talking about might be Ron Smith.
As well as a great engraver Ron is a student of the bible as you know.
I tried to send you this message to Noelle's email address but my message got bounced as undesireable.
Hope I have not upset her in some way.
Regards, John.

John Barraclough
8/18/2007 1:04:47 PM

John,

Thanks John ..............my mistake..

Thanks again,

M A Smith



Mark Smith
8/18/2007 5:49:58 PM

Marty
I like Roger's idea of How to: foreground / background and your idea of critequeing, I will send a photo


Robert Strosin
8/20/2007 9:50:25 PM

I can't thank all of you enough for the emails, phone calls and support during this emergency that my mother has had. She's not out of the woods yet but she's a feisty old gal and is not giving up easily.
This has taken up a lot of my time recently with traveling back east and not having my head screwed on right at times through this ordeal.

I am encouraged by your support and enthusiasm for my seminar. I'll do my best to explain my approach to doing animals and scenes. What you have posted here and sent me in your emails should make for an interesting seminar. As you know i am still trying to find the best approach and materials to present this with but with your help it should work out nicely. It's difficult to intertwine technique along with concepts and artistic judgement.
Roger, thanks you for the email telling me how much the castings helped you understand how I layout and execute my scenes. Maybe if you can explain your perceptions on this to me i can translate it in the seminar so I don't miss anything.
Lee, Andrew, Bob and the rest....we'll have fun tweeking layouts, compositions and values as we always do together. Thanks for your support.
Last but not least.my old buddy Ken Hurst. It was great talking with you today and thanks for the support. I just hope I'm as good as you say I am. We've been friends a long time. Let me know how the shading turns out on those geese

Thanks agin guys for your friendship and support

Marty

Martin Rabeno
8/20/2007 11:37:44 PM

Mark, appreciate the correction, thank-you.


John, I have the right "Mr. Smith"....that is I meant to say Mark

Regards & Cheers

Chris

Christopher Malouf
8/21/2007 3:24:49 AM

Marty,
I'm working on a piece now. Put a pad on the bench to take notes or bullets of items that come up as I'm working. Will send you something in a couple of weeks

Roger

Roger Henrichs
8/21/2007 9:12:22 PM